There is this Chinese dating sim game which I really like, but one of the English VAs got fired because he tweeted that “Taiwan is a country”. I’m confused. I always thought Taiwan is a country? How is it not? Please explain 😭

People have always given me the same mundane and unoriginal counterarguments to my statement. Though their counter arguments are factual, they fail to prove that Taiwan is a country.

Here is a rough list of what they tell me:
-Taiwan is self governing
-Taiwan has native Taiwanese people, Taiwan is not Chinese
-Taiwan wants to be independent
-The ROC came before the PRC

All these points that they mention are either half truths/irrelevant proofs. To understand what a country is, is in fact, quite complicated. According to Wikipedia, "A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity". But by that logic, Disneyland is a country because it is a distinctive part of the world and it is an entity of commerce that had its own currency, that has its own members of government, members of state (board of execs) and it is a distinct entity. But is Disneyland a country? No. So we have to look further than Wikipedia.

In 1933, the Montevideo convention sought to define what a country was. They settled that a country had:
-A permanent population
-A defined territorial boundary
-A government
-Ability to have diplomacy

Taiwan has all of these things, so that's settled right? It's over, checkmate, defeat. My argument has been completely thwarted and I have lost! Well, no quite... For any of you well knowledged internet nerds, you may have hear about places such as the Principality of Sealand, North Dumpling Island, the Republic of Molossia and many other states like these. These are all micro-"nations". They have a permanent population, they have a defined territorial boundary, they have their own governments/legal systems and they all have diplomacy with other unrecognized states. And yet, no one even considers these places to be countries.

You see, a country has two things: De facto rule and De jure rule. De facto rule is the physical presence and strength to exercise your will over a territory. De jure rule is the legal ability to exercise you will over a territory. All of these places I have mentioned are de facto states, not de jure states, because they lack the legal ability to rule themselves. Afghanistan, for example, has only de jure rule over the country but no de facto rule, as the Taliban now has total control of the country. So what gives you de jure (legal) rule over a territory? Well, most people can agree that official UN recognition is the gold standard to reach this goal. Historical, cultural and ethnic borders also help make nations. To undisputedly be a country, you need de facto AND de jure rule.

Sealand has its own passport, its own currency, its own legal system, a flag, a constitution, an anthem, its army (now disbanded) and its borders. Taiwan has these same things, except its a larger island than Sealand. So we can establish that Taiwan has total de facto rule over the island. But does Taiwan have de jure rule? Well, here are some facts:
-182 of 193 UN member states OFFICIALLY recognize the one China principle.
-97%+ of the Taiwanese people originate from Fujian, China. They speak Chinese, but have a different accent and still kept the traditional writing system (or use Hokkien). They celebrate things like Chinese new year and have close Chinese culture.
-Taiwan has never declared independence from China. The majority of the population support pan-blue (Basically saying that Taiwan is China) and pro-reunification parties (Taiwan is under the PRC).

Taiwan's government is led by the REPUBLIC OF CHINA. So tell me, if they want to be their own country, why do they have China in their name? Doesn't that make them Chinese? Well the answer is in fact, yes. In 1945, ww2 ended, the fierce, brutal and oppressive regime under the dictatorship of the Kuomintang had defeated the Japanese, alongside with the help of other nations and groups, such as the people's liberation army (PLA). The PLA had a dream of a prosperous China that would be a strong and powerful nation, like the one we have today. The KMT didn't like the fact that other political parties exist (go figure, its a dictatorship) so the two groups went to war. The KMT at least 10 million people during their leadership, the organization was very corrupt and the army was poorly managed. Warlords had ravaged the country before the war, showing how weak the ROC government was. Because of this, people flocked to join the PLA and abandoned the KMT forces. This resulted in the KMT losing the war and cowardly fleeing to Taiwan. Since then, they claim the war hasn't ended and that they still own the entirety of China.

To conclude, Taiwan is filled with Chinese people, the ROC has no legal jursidiction over Taiwan and the island has no right to be led by an independent country. The island had been Chinese for hundreds of years prior, and foreign interference had taken the island (then known as Formosa) away form the Chinese. Now, its time to make things right and bring it back.

This is not an opinion, but a fact. I do not hate the Taiwanese people, I love them very much. I understand their regards against communism and how they don't want to join a Communist country. But at the end of the day, the Island has no sovereignty, only de facto rule.

Mods, please don't take this down. Doing so will only show how biased you are and how you are weak to western propaganda and only listen to it. If you really want to take this post down, prove me wrong, and prove me otherwise. If you manage to convince me, I will switch teams and join the Taiwanese side.

Much love from 🇨🇦

Edit: It’s funny how many of the opposing comments refuse to acknowledge that I wrote “effectively” (meaning ‘actually but not officially or explicitly’). The truth is, in our current state and all of its history, it has been effectively independent. Talk is talk. Reality is reality. Sorry if you guys are upset about it. No one has responded to “what is your goal?”. The truth is, if you really oppose the reality (how Taiwan operates now), just say you want war. Just say you want to uproot the lives of millions. There isn’t really another option besides those 2 and you know that. I’m okay with either answer (war or uprooting everyone’s lives). Just admit it though.

Keeping the status quo is good. It’s an easy way for Taiwan to just manipulate China into not attacking. Actually, we aren’t even manipulating China. They already know we just hold the status quo even though we think independence in our minds. It’s as if I just stole a million dollars from you in front of the world but I’m like “nah I didn’t”. And then no one does anything, you can’t do anything without consequences. Sorry for your loss. Good game guys.

For people who say war is inevitable — are you so sure — it isn’t recent news that China threatens to attack. They been saying this for like over 50 years 😝. Global sanctions will be crazy. Look at Russia and Ukraine too. Russia has one of the strongest militaries in the world and look at them struggle with a land invasion right NEXT to them. Try an invasion through water. Not saying China wouldn’t win if Taiwan had NO help. But it would 100% be harder than Russia invading Ukraine even with ZERO help. By miles and miles. Combine that with the global sanctions and the fact that Taiwan would probably receive help in one way or another. Good luck and see you guys in 50 years.

To the people who say Taiwan is an outpost for the USA or the USA uses Taiwan strategically against China. Fair, I accept that argument. But that just negatively impacts China. Not Taiwan and its people. Taiwanese people voted for Pro-Independence again so clearly they are good with how it is now. Sorry for your loss again.

Oh also, to those saying I posted this in wrong subreddit. No. I knew they would flock over like they just did. 😝. —————————————————————————————

1. There was a civil war in China. The ORIGINAL government — the Republic of China (ROC) — lost to the communists and fled to Taiwan in 1949. Since then, it has operated from Taiwan. The ‘NEW’ government, People’s Republic of China (PRC), which took over the mainland, has never ruled Taiwan at any point in history.

2. People claiming Taiwan was owned by China are misinformed (because obviously they are referring to the current PRC China when they say owned by China). The PRC never had Taiwan to begin with. Taiwan was ruled by Japan from 1895 to 1945, then returned to the ROC. The PRC didn’t exist until 1949 and never inherited or controlled Taiwan. So there was nothing to “break away” from.

3. Taiwan has been fully self-governed since 1949. It has its own military, constitution, currency, legal system, elections, and borders. Whether other countries formally recognize it or not, in practice, it is entirely independent. Recognition on paper doesn’t change reality on the ground.

4. Some people point to Taiwan’s official name — Republic of China — as if that proves it’s part of mainland China. But that’s just because both claimed to be China when Chiang Kai Shek fled the mainland in 1949. People aren’t really capable of logically reading into the history of things and just see the name. In reality, Taiwan is governed completely separately from the PRC. It has its own laws, leaders, and systems — the name doesn’t change the fact that it’s functionally its own country.

5. Think of it like this: imagine you were the original owner of a store. During wartime, someone took over your store and name — legally. You moved to a new location, reopened under the same name (illegally), and kept operating successfully and no one stopped you and no one stops you to this day. Maybe you technically weren’t supposed to do that, but you run your business, make money, and live freely. That’s Taiwan — whatever claims the PRC makes, they’ve done nothing to stop Taiwan from functioning on its own.

6. Taiwan just re-elected its pro-independence government again. The people vote, speak freely, and live in a democracy. Meanwhile, the PRC continues to talk about ownership without taking action. If China’s claim really meant anything, they’d do something about it — but they haven’t, and likely can’t without global consequences.

7. The only real argument left is that “other countries don’t officially recognize Taiwan.” But so what? Recognition is a diplomatic formality. Taiwan doesn’t need it to function. It builds tech, trades internationally, defends itself, and sets its own laws. It’s effectively independent, and no one’s stopping it.

The final point is:

I can understand if you are Chinese and are reading the history books and it says Taiwan is technically on paper China’s (with some ambiguity but disregard this) and you want it to be part of your country. Who wouldn’t? It’s an amazing island and for you to have access to that as yours would obviously benefit you (even if it isn’t right).

To those who are not Chinese or don’t live in China and Taiwan and are arguing for Taiwan to be part of China, what is your objective? If it’s just historical accuracy, sure, technically on paper China was taken over by a new government in 1949 and Taiwan was included in that old China that they took over. If you mean ABSOLUTELY nothing else than just that, then okay we agree.

However if you are not only making the “on paper” argument and you want to respond to my 7 points above (responding to those proved you don’t only care about the “on paper” argument since I already told you I agree with that), then what are you trying to say? —

Do you want China to take back Taiwan? (This insinuates you want war. We both know this won’t happen if there is no war because Taiwan is literally functioning as an independent country with tens of millions of citizens). It has a COMPLETELY different government and lifestyle and values. The only way to combine would to have war.

Do you just want to antagonize Taiwanese people? Sure I’ll accept that but are you going to acknowledge that that’s what you are doing?

Maybe you want to gain the support of more Chinese people? (their population is huge, taking the side with more supporters would obviously help you make your argument).

You want to disrupt the democratic, free same sex marriage, more free speech lifestyle of 20+ millions Taiwanese people because you think China’s socialist government is better? By the way, this would COMPLETELY uproot the lives of all these people.

Maybe an option I didn’t mention? I want to know your opinions.

There is a very big dispute over a place in Asia called Taiwan. The dispute is about if the place is a country, or a province of the People's Republic of China. What is your opinion (and evidence)?

While I am a communist, I have to acknowledge Taiwan is clearly a de facto independent nation

As the picture. Why can't I change it back? Do I have to be British all the time? This has been bothering me for a long time. I hope someone can help me.

I am a mainlander, all of my family and extended family believe that Taiwan is a province of China. However they all agree that the issue is complicated and there is not a definite answer. Some older members of my extended family who are a part of the CPC genuinely believe that Taiwan is a province of China and there is no debate or a reasonable take to think otherwise.

I personally, do not agree that Taiwan is a province. My Chinese friends are divided on this issue but most believe Taiwan is a province of China. But how can so many believe from the bottom of their heart that Taiwan is just a province when Taiwan holds many characteristics of a country? I mean, Chinese citizens cannot visit the island without permits, Taiwan have its own passport, own military, very minor recognitions, etc. How is it a reasonable take that Taiwan is just a province of China?

I personally think Taiwan is its own country, considering the sheer size of its self-regulated economy and its unofficial diplomacy.

I'm born to a Taiwanese dad and Chinese mom after they both immigrated here, and both of them think Taiwan is its own country.

I know that many of the nations that recognize the island of Taiwan as a country were/are in Latin America and with Nicaragua recently being the latest country to drop recognition I wanted to know how people in the region felt about this issue. Do you think they are a country and why do you think so?

There seem to be vastly different opinions on this issue even among people in the same pro-Taiwan camp. Some people said that saying Taiwan is part of China is very insulting to the majority people of Taiwan and at this point, Taiwan and China are just two separate nations. Others said they didn't like the fact that Taiwan is part of China, but it's a fact for now. Others argued that the Taiwanese government is the 'sole legitimate government of all China' and Taiwanese should be proud of the fact that they are part of China. Some argued that they just wanted the 'status quo' and the peace of the region(But I had a feeling that 'status quo' meant vastly different things to different people.) So is Taiwan a part of China or not? Why are there so many different opinions on this seemingly simple question?

I'm not particularly clued up on this - I'm hoping that someone can give me a run down of the reasons that Taiwan is an administrative region rather than a country.

I appreciate that people here might not have that view, but I also think that they (you?) are more likely to understand the other sides of this position than I am.

The reason that I don't have much insight from discussion is because I've not had a discussion about this with a Chinese person that's really gone anywhere.

Chinese people that I know in the UK have basically just said they don't really get why people are so bothered about it (ie - people from mainland china. These people are also from mainland, fwiw).

People that I've spoken to from China often fail to give me any reasons or explanations. In fact it usually ends up in a pretty exhausting discussion of why providing reasons for ones position and using logic is important, and how people can learn from each other by discussing things. I'm then told that I just don't understand or something. I know that this paragraph might sound a little circle-jerky, but it's honestly my experience from discussion on this.

So, if anyone could provide me a brief rundown of why it isn't a country, that'd be appreciated.

Ok so I go on Reddit every day and I always see memes like this and this I’ve never seen anything about China or Taiwan on the news and I’ve never seen anything even somewhat explaining what the memes mean

Edit: I added another example

Taiwan is independent, it is not governed by Beijing, not at all, it does not pay taxes to Beijing, has its own military that is not under Beijing control and even opposes Beijing.

Taiwan is a country, although most other countries on the planet does not recognize it, not even the UN, it is recognized by 14 countries, 13 of them UN member states, which has formal diplomatic ties with Taiwan by the name the Republic of China (ROC):

13 UN states: Belize, Eswatini, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Palau, Paraguay, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Tuvalu.

And the Holy See (Vatican City).

Historic wise, Taiwan has been ruled by ROC since 1945, the ROC is an independent country, it's just that PRC (the People's Republic of China) took away most of ROC's territory in 1949. But ROC did not cease to exist as an independent country. It's in fact two Chinas, just like two Koreas, two Germanys.

Although in ROC's constitution, the territory still includes the Chinese mainland, I would argue that doesn't make Taiwan part of China. The constitution is just outdated and cannot be updated under PRC's threat. There are many laws in many countries that are outdated and no longer being practiced as well, what matters is the how things work in the real world.

At least I think we can agree that Taiwan is a de facto independent country, although not de jure, I think facts are what matters in the end, not paper.

If you breathe, eat and sleep like a living person, but everyone says you are dead except a handful of friends, does that make you a dead person? Facts > words

Even Kosovo has more countries recognizing it than the "Republic of China", even though the ROC has been around longer and plays a bigger role in the world, for example, being the world's largest semiconductor producer.