Love had always wanted Joe to accept his true nature, be who he truly was, with her and as a family. So, what Joe has now, with Kate, is exactly the kind of life, the kind of relationship that Love had offered to joe.

But, because Love was much too similar to him, in the ways of murdering people, he robbed himself of a decent life way before he found Kate.

Love deserved more than him anyway. But still.

Edit: I'm not saying either of them are GOOD people, obviously they're not. They both belong in prison clearly. I'm just saying Love didn't start killing for sport until she met Joe. Yes, she killed the two before, but she killed Delilah for Joe. She's crazy clearly. Joe is goddamn psychotic. Joe's been killing for nothing pretty much since the start and once someone matched his wavelength, mostly FOR HIM, everything he's done up to that point was literally for NOTHING because he's instantly turned off and his instant reaction is to get rid of her.

So, yes, in my opinion, Love deserved better. But, that's not the point of the post.

It was just to point out that Love had offered Joe the life that Kate had given Joe. If Love hadn't revealed she was also a killer, Joe would still be with her.

Also in the books, Love isn't a murderer. So for all we know Love didn't murder anyone, cause we know now that Joe has been hallucinating probably since after Season one, since he killed Beck. Love probably did do something, but maybe it wasn't murder, her family was rich so they probably covered up a few things that he linked to her being a murderer. For all we know.

There's aspects to season 4's ending that do make sense, and that don't make sense. However, most of the logic holes people poke in it, I don't really see. So this post is how I think things are implied to have happened, and the stuff that actually doesn't make sense.

So the official story about Love, Joe, Henry and Madre Linda as of the end of season 3 was implied to be:

1. Joe, Love and Henry move into the neighbourhood, and Love starts a bakery called "A Fresh Tart". (Source: The police will have interviewed Dottie, plus it's common knowledge in Madre).

2. Joe cheats on Love for Natalie and Love catches on to it and murders Natalie, and takes her scarf and keeps it as a trophy (source: the police would have interviewed Sherry and Cary, and the trophee box Joe left with Love before he ran off).

3. Gil causes Henry to get the Measles, and Love kidnaps and murders him and then frames him for Natalie's murder and stages it as a murder suicide from an affair they had. Love takes Gil's ID and keeps it as a trophee (source: hospital records that Henry was admitted with the measles and the suicide note "Love" wrote, the trophee box).

4. Love has an affair with Theo (source: the police would interview Theo and Matthew).

5. Sherry and Cary overhear Love proclaim that she is Natalie's killer, so Joe and Love knock them out and stuff them in the cage (source: the Sherry and Cary police interview).

6. Love places a gun in the cage and threatens that unless one of the Conrads kill the other, neither will ever be set free (source: the Sherry and Cary police interview, Cary's admission to hospital after he was shot).

7. Love murders Ryan because he was investigating Natalie's murder and takes a trophee from him that I can't remember (source: the suicide letter and the trophee box).

8. Theo comes to the bakery, finds the Conrads and Love assaults him and leaves him with severe and life threatening injuries (source: Theo's admission to hospital, Theo's police interview, Sherry and Cary's police interview where they would reveal that Theo found them).

9. Joe finds Theo and takes him to hospital (source: Theo's police interview, the doctors who Joe turned him over to).

10. Joe leaves Henry at Dante and Lansing's doorstep (source: Dante and Lansing's police interview, the note Joe left with Henry).

11. Love paralyses Joe and leaves the house to deliver her baking to a customer. Matthew breaks into the house, finds Joe paralysed, Joe indicates that he doesn't want cops, and then Matthew leaves (source: Matthew's police interview).

12. Love murders Joe because he wanted to divorce her and hated her (source: the suicide note), chops off his toe and makes a pie out of him, chops off another toe and keeps it as a trophee. She puts all the trophees from Natalie, Gil, Ryan and Joe in a glass box. She sets the house on fire and kills herself and puts her trophees beside her. (source: the police arrive at the house and the fire department do too and they all see the situation).

Aspects that seem like they don't make sense but do:

Q: Why has Joe been let off for covering up Natalie's murder? Why is he seen as a hero when he did that?

A: The news report said Joe "escaped" serial killer Love Quinn, meaning the idea is that he was being threatened by her and was afraid of what would happen if he reported her.

Q: Now that Joe is known to be alive, won't Sherry, Cary, Theo and Matthew report what they know about him to the police?

A: As explained earlier, after Joe faked his death, the Conrads's captivity and Theo's assault will have been investigated by cops. All they know about Joe's involvement has almost certainly already been exposed. They have nothing more to tell.

But as of season 4, when Joe is now revealed to be alive.... There are holes in the ending that make no sense:

1. Why hasn't Joe been arrested for assaulting Cary and abducting him and Sherry and then leaving them in Love's captivity?

2. What is believed about Love's death now? The official story doesn't hold water as the suicide note says that she killed Joe, but evidently she didn't. Why would Love have claimed to have committed a murder that she did not commit?

3. What about the pie? Evidently it's not Joe.

4. The only public explanation that might explain some of this away is that Joe killed Love in self defence, and then staged her death as a suicide and ran. But then... Why hasn't be been arrested for framing Love for murder (his own) and for arson? Maybe he paid it off with Kate's money I guess.

5. Joe is now seen as a hero, but hasn't he essentially been exposed for cheating on his wife? Okay, Love was a murderer so maybe nobody will care, but Natalie was married and Joe had sex with her (he didn't actually, but that's what Sherry and Cary will have told everyone). Why is the man who banged a married lady seen so fondly?

It was clear from the start that Marienne was alive at the end of the final episode, I knew as much when Joe didn't go out of his way to get rid of her body.

But that ending? Fucking hell, this show really managed to twist it in the gut. Poor Nadia, poor Eddie, poor everyone whose life Joe destroyed or ruined and now will never be able to get any sort of peace (so foar).

I really hope he gets his comeuppance in the next season. He has to. And I will stick here for that. Because this was fantastic, rage-inducing writing.

So, I just finished the second part of the series and of course ran straight to Reddit, only to find people complaining about the ending, saying that Joe, “can’t keep getting away with it!”

You’re missing the point!

In previous seasons, he’s gotten away with his crimes, similar to Series 4, yes. BUT this time, he’s gone so completely off the scale (adopting his evil persona of Rhys to his core) that he’s alienated himself from the viewer. He’s no longer ‘a bad guy with redeemable qualities’ - he’s a full blown psychopath. Joe has tried to portray himself as someone who ‘kills for the right reasons’, and with this, the audience has tended to try to find a rationale for what he does (take for example, all the Reddit posts about who deserved it and who didn’t). Penn always talks about the people who idolise Joe in interviews and how messed up that is, and with him seeming to have more involvement with production this series (e.g. Penn asking for fewer intimacy scenes), it seems like perhaps that frustration has influenced the writing! I feel like what the writers have tried to achieve with this series is to completely alienate any of those remaining viewers who were sympathising with Joe - and that’s why it’s so good! That’s why Joe framed Nadia, rather than ‘protecting’ her, like he did with Ellie. The writers want us to hate him.

This series has felt much more horror-esque than any of the previous. As someone who was still rooting for Joe somewhat until part two of series four was released, I can definitely say that Joe is the antagonist now, rather than the ‘Anti-Hero’.

Spoilers Ahead

I'm going to try to not have to many spoilers and keep it vague but WHAT THE FUCK.

4 Seasons of this show and this is what it builds up to? This season just feels like it was written in 2 days. Huge plot holes, unintresting caracthers and development.

The ending especially is really weak, oh turns out Joe was the murderer (Big suprise) and Kate is completely ok with him doing all this. So essentially Kate was ok with Joe killing her boyfriend and her dad. Like what? No actual human being would be fine with that.

Also I really didn't like how Marienne was fit into this season. She felt like a second thought and felt like a cameo from Season 3. Her ending wasn't the best either.

Like I get the whole Rhys isn't real thing but it was a really obvious and uncreative. Honestly this whole season had bad writing.

I really wanted Joe to die and finally put an end to his story. Now that he's basically completely fine and alive this season just seems pointless.

I hope they make Season 5 where Joe just dies.

I'm very lost on the ending.Joe set up Nadiya with her boyfriend's murder and she got arrested? Why wouldn't she tell the police about what Joe did especially if she knows Marianne is alive and well?

Also I cannot understand how Phoebe's stalker could have been viewed by the police to be responsible for all of Joe's murders in England. Wouldn't she have had aliabis during the time for some of the murders, video coverage, DNA etc? After she was arrested I believe the following were still murdered: Reese, Kate's father, Phoebe's pervert husband, Nadia's boyfriend, and probably someone else I'm forgetting. Even though Joe didn't kill Phoebe's husband, there was still a connection between all 3 of them as they all knew each other within 3 degrees of separation or whatever.

Also this goes back to the first episode of season 4 where Love's family hires a PI. What would make Love's family actually believe Joe was still alive immediately after her death since they found his toe?

Lastly (and I know this would have basically ruined the episodes in season 4. Joe was a smart guy but so stupid to have been in a wealthy, elite social network considering photos were clearly going to be taken of him and posted online. Had him just kept a low profile he probably could have continued to have just lived a quiet, solitary life. He made things worse now by being even more in the public eye by being with Kate (not clear if they were engaged or married at the end?) especially since Paco and Ellie would know that he's still alive.

Don't get me wrong I still love the show but they made his crimes seem like such a stretch in season 4. In season 1 -2 he clearly could have gotten away with everything and did. In season 3, from what I remember the murders were all related to helping protect Love or self defense but then season 4 to be were murders that were all very different from the others.

Not sure if the spoiler tag shows up, mine is bugged on my device but just in case: spoilers ahead for those who haven't finished S4 yet.

I hate the ending. This is kind of a vent.

Notes: These are all my takes, please feel free to discuss with me so I could see some sense. I really loved everything up until the final scene, and I wanna like the ending and how Joe is set up into the final season.

Well first off, I like what they did with Joe's character and all, so maybe I should put it as I'm upset with the final scene and how they did his transformation.

I hate how Nadia's storyline ended. I get that it was needed as it was the best way to show what Joe had become and probably the only way to finish up Nadia's storyline without loose ends. But I'm soooo upset seeing what happened to Nadia and Eddie.

I feel like all the deaths/frames/punishments that happened throughout the series were "necessary" and had good impact on the plot. Except for this one. Joe had a complexity to his character in that his murders were all for reason. He at least had "respect" for the people around him and wasn't the "kill when I can" type of guy. If he did murder, he thinks about it and uses it as the last resort as much as possible (when he's sane). And also, he does show care for people around him, and out of all the characters in S4, I'd have thought he would respect and try to protect Nadia the most. I feel like Eddie and Nadia didn't deserve what happened to them and Joe definitely did not think about what he did. It felt so abrupt and convenient?? Idk. It felt like it was something Love would do, not Joe. Though I guess the only alternative was for him to threaten Nadia to run away, but it's too similar to Ellie's conclusion in S2. They definitely could've put in effort to make something better work, though.

The writing also put me off. I feel like the writers threw all the thinking out after using Nadia for Marienne's clean escape. Nadia and Eddie suddenly thinking about how Joe would likely have a box of items of his victims then going out to "detect" - the writers definitely did not think about this and just wanted to get rid of their storyline and close that page. No sense of danger at all for Nadia up until the last scene. I get that she's supposed to be investigative yet reckless, and they did set her character up as so, but after discovering Marienne in the cage she did learn to become careful, which her character only does when she's around Marienne. Everything was sooo convenient, surpassing my personal level of acceptability in You's storyline. Nadia's smart but didn't think twice about bringing contraband into public transport, being able to get out of the police station scot free, then Nadia and Eddie discussing things they should never "tell a soul" out in public. Again, everything was so freaking convenient for her after Marienne got away. Sad because for me, they were setting something good up with her character, but nope. Thrown all away in that damn final scene. Marienne's free? Bye.

One good thing though is that before the final scene I was becoming skeptical about how the story would paint Joe. I didn't want this to become his "redemption" and all, which was pretty much what the majority of S4 seemed to be setting up to do. But this went beyond and made me genuinely dislike Joe as a character. He HAD complexity. His background on not wanting to kill but ultimately always ending up doing so was just thrown out, and now he is able to and just kills and frames as he wants with all the power he can get, as if the series doesn't already gloss over the fact that he's exceptionally lucky with his frames and setups. Makes me wonder how they'll do Joe's internal monologues in S5 now that "I didn't wanna do this" is out of his thoughts. I get that Joe's now fully accepted he's a murderer, but I guess on my end his internal conflict was what made the show so captivating for me. I also think how they showed Joe's acceptance and transformation into his new self could have been set up much better than how they did it, and that his commitment to it would not be something done within final 10 mins of the final episode.

Idk that's all for me. Great season, but the ending (not even the season conclusion, just the final scene) ruined it for me. That's all and thanks for listening to my ted talk.

Marked for spoilers obviously, since I'll be discussing the episode in relatively good detail.

Hi all! This is my first time posting to this sub, never even knew it existed until about a week ago. I've got some feedback to share on what I thought of the episode, as well as some possible theories regarding Joe. I don't know if there's any validity to it but I'm spitballing here.

First I'd like to preface by saying that I think this show is great. Started back when Season 1 hit Netflix and have been binging it ever since. I love Penn Badgley's acting, and more importantly how each victim from each season somehow ties in with the next. Either as an interesting cameo or a manifestation of Joe's psyche. However this is really neither here nor there, since what I wanna talk about is a little more deep, and also unnerving. At least to me.

So in the S4 finale, there's a part where Joe and Rhys, who's secretly Joe's "inner demons" are arguing on a bridge, shortly before Joe throws himself off and drowns himself. As a way to end the cycle or however he puts it. What interests me about this scene is not just the fact that it's just Joe arguing with himself (basically) but also that there's a very clear distinction between 'Good Joe' and 'Evil Joe'.

What gets me most about this scene is that I guess it's supposed to represent this neverending tug-of-war battle in Joe's head between him wanting to murder people and him just trying to find someone to love. In the end, good triumphs and he commits suicide, or so we think. Then it flashes forward to him laying, barely conscious, on a hospital bed next to Kate. Followed almost immediately by Joe's willingness to accept Kate's flaws, and Kate's willingness to accept Joe's. The scene cuts off shortly after but not before Joe starts to tell Kate his story.

This got me in a little bit of a bind. Up to this point I thought it was Joe thinking he's the good guy after time and time again murdering the people he 'loves' or obsesses over. Always using some vague excuse like they're flawed or they weren't the one. This is a clear indication Joe is battling his inner demons because he starts off with good intentions. Always.

But then there's the Joe in one of the final scenes of the episode, presumably engaged or in a more serious relationship with Kate, after moving back to NYC. He doesn't look nearly as nice, or charming, or as laid back as the Joe we've seen in the pilot episodes of each new season. He looks menacing, almost like he has some kind of twisted plan. It's here I believe Joe's 'morals' have evolved (for lack of a better word) to not only target the women he thinks are flawed, but possibly the whole world. Now that he's in bed with one of the richest people on earth and has all the hush money in the world. (Seriously though, poor Nadia)

This all ties back to what I was saying about Joe and Rhys on the bridge, or at least what I think was happening. Joe exclaims that he needs to break the cycle so people stop dying, and he's the problem. So he thanks his darker self for getting him through the hard times and jumps in. But then, at the very last second, I can't tell if it was his "dark side" taking back control or him just regretting what he did, but he almost seems to try and swim back up.

A lot of people I've seen online and in my friend groups have said this is just Joe. He's a megalomaniac, narcissistic creeper who murders people, and he's selfish, and he doesn't wanna die. This is a reasonable take, but personally what I see is Joe, at the very end of his rope and life, loses consciousness, and his dark side takes over. The good Joe is dead, and the bad Joe is here to stay. (or rather, the bad joe, 100% of the time)

I know this theory seems a little silly, but it's the only reason I can come up with why Joe's attitude with Nadia shifts almost completely, practically snatches her phone out of her hand, and frames her for her Edward's murder. This is a complete 180-degree twist from how Joe normally acts around people he knows, even if he's trying to be subtle. I still can't think of a reason he would do this to Nadia, even now as I type this. Sure, she had some evidence against him, but he was already knee-deep in a relationship with a woman who had hush money, so what was the point? Not to mention his menacing look disguised as friendliness towards the end of the episode.

This is my theory. Season 5 will probably be the bloodiest because I firmly believe what was left of Joe's morals were tossed aside after that attempted suicide. I think the line between good and evil has been crossed many times, but Joe's good side just seems to be gone now.

Thanks everyone for reading, sorry if it got a little crazy. Can't wait to see where this story goes next.

Hey, just a fair warning I will be talking a lot about the new season ending and the reviews I have been trying to watch and keep up with on YouTube, Reddit, and etc.

PART 1: I personally thought how the show started with a Clue style mystery was a great spin on the series as a whole. (This part contains a ton of spoilers for the entirety of Season 4 Part 1, this is your final warning!) With Joe now not being the killer in the first part to the new season, I think this worked really well on making the viewer think we were getting something new out of the season. I really believe the Clue style of the first part works really well on giving a spin on "Johnathan Moore" and making him seem like he finally got away from his past life and its now being ruined by a third party. With the new love interest obviously being Kate, I believe this season could end in many interesting ways with Part 2 already being released as I am writing this Review/Analysis. At the end of Part 1 after all the murders and the relentless fighting back and forth between "Johnathan Moore" and Rhys Montrose, I believe the first part ended in a, in my opinion, good way with the mansion fire showing the rest of the circle "Johnathan Moore" is not the murderer everyone thought he was. In my opinion this was a good way to wrap up the first part of Season 4 and give every viewer watching a good hook to continue the series into Part 2. In my opinion this gave the series a break from the entire Joe Goldberg murdering spree of each season, which was getting a little repetitive, to be honest.

PART 2: Back to my original statement, the Clue style spin on the series was a great way to break the cycle of the entire Joe Goldberg murdering spree. (Again, the next part of this post is going to have tons of spoilers for the entirety of Season 4 Part 2, this again is a final warning!) In the beginning of Part 2 we go back to the entire, Rhys Montrose is manipulating and blackmailing "Jonhathan Moore" into killing for him, our "Johnathan" thought it was going to be over after pinning the Eat the Rich Killer on the Dawn with Simon's severed ear, (I believe that may be a joke about Vincent van Gogh cutting off his own ear, haha). Then in Episode 7, "Good Man, Cruel World", that "Johnathan Moore" is starting to show his roots again as Joe Goldberg by finding out that Joe has had an entirely fake portrait of Rhys Montrose in his head, taking the role of Joe's murderous side and showing that Joe Goldberg was the true killer all along. In my opinion the first two episodes of the first season are packed with a lot of info that seem to happen all at once with the murder of the real Rhys Montrose, Joe finding out Marianne is locked up in a cage, and that he is the true killer of Season 4. This all seems like too much at once and very clouded in my opinion.

Continuation of PART 2: Even though I thought all this information could have been explained in a better way, this fight with Joe's Murderous side portrayed as Rhys Montrose and Joe Goldberg is a good way to show that Joe has went out of his comfort zone and is trying to get rid of his past. I will be honest my opinion is very biased when it comes to shows, including YOU, I like how they don't just keep the entire Joe is a murderer who keeps on murdering theme, I like how they play a mental illness into the story to give more depth behind the mind of Joe Goldberg. When it comes to mental illnesses being portrayed in shows I have a deep connection to another Netflix original, Bojack Horseman, this show gives a good light on how you can use mental illnesses like the one Dawn and Joe Goldberg share to give a character more depth. This all makes the show more interesting in my opinion and makes Joe Goldberg more of a character than a shell of a murderer.

FINALE, EPISODE 10: (spoilers ahead for the final episode of Season 4, be warned) In conclusion, I enjoyed the last episode with only a handful of personal changes I would have made to the finale as a whole. When "Jonathan Moore" and Rhys Montrose have the fight on the bridge and have the entire "I love You" scene, "I don't this this scene could have been better", is what I want to say. I believe the scene was decent up to the point where "Johnathan Moore" jumps into the water below him with after throwing his fictional Rhys Montrose into the water right before. I believe when they hugged right after Rhys says "I love You" is when "Johnathan" should have pulled both of them at once into the water from the bridge, of course forgetting the actual physical constraints of that actually being possible, I think then when seeing "Johnathan" in the water regretting jumping, I believe it would have played better with some dialogue about him giving up his past murderous ways and watching the fictional murderous Rhys Montrose fade away into the water beside "Johnathan" as the dialogue about regret plays out would have ended that side better than how they actually played it off. This would also have changed the end of the season for better making what ends up being Joe Goldberg after his murderous past was erased by his new, and hopefully final love, Kate Galvin, a no longer blood lust Joe Goldberg. Ending the entire series there would have given the show a good end instead of what happened with Joe Goldberg at the end of the series, not leaving us on a hook, but Netflix gave the series a end where if they decide to pick it up for a season 5 or end it, there is no hook to leave us hanging.

Finally, I would give this new season a 6/10 compared to the other seasons of the show, it was good but could have been better according to how much time was taken to complete Season 4.

Thank you for reading my Review/Analysis of Season 4 of YOU, the latest season to one of my favorite shows Netflix has ever produced.

Also, If you have any questions on my thought process, go ahead and ask away!

Just finished Season 4 of You, and I got chills because of how good the ending was. I think it was absolutely perfect. The way he framed Nadia, the way it was revealed how Marienne was still alive. How he is back in New York. And that evil smile at the end to top it all off. A lot may disagree with me, but I literally got chills from this ending. I can’t wait to see what Season 5 has to offer.

I was rewatching Season 2 today while waiting for Season 4 top drop and there is a scene where it appears that Joe meets Love and gets a job at Anavrin. However, it is later revealed in the episode that Joe had actually planned the encounter and had already been stalking Love before they officially met at the produce section. It is shown that Joe had gone to great lengths to stalk Love, including getting an apartment flat across from hers and how he stole the identity of Will Bettelheim.

Could it be that Joe's obsession with Kate began before he even met her through their mutual friend group? There is a scene where Joe is reading a newspaper article about Lady Phoebe, and it is possible that this is where he first became obsessed with the friend group that Kate was a part of. Also explains how coincidentally got an apartment that happens to provide a clear view of her windows..

I think we'll find out Joe killed Marienne. He killed her before she was able to get on the train back to France. She knew he was still alive and in London, so she would obviously report him to the authorities. If she didn't report him, she would be putting her life and her child's life in danger, because Joe could show up at her doorstep at any time. He knows she'll report him; he wouldn't leave such a huge loose end. If Candace came back to get revenge and she was 99% dead, Marienne is obviously going to get revenge.

He's been able to justify all his murders in the past, but this time he's not able to justify the murder because Marienne is absolutely innocent and there's no way even Joe's twisted mind could justify killing her.

Subconsciously Joe blames Love for Marienne's death, because if she hadn't told Marienne the truth about him they would live happily ever after. He blames Love and by that same logic he blames all rich people for the plight of his love story. He wants to get revenge on the rich. That's why Joe decides to teach at this school and befriend Malcolm; he knows Malcolm has connections to the elite.

Joe dissociates and becomes the "Eat the Rich Killer", because this way he'll be able to get revenge on the rich, but in his mind he can still be a good person. His mind makes up the whole murder mystery, because he needs someone to be responsible for these murders as a coping mechanism. After reading Rhys' book, Joe's mind knows exactly who to pin the murders on. Rhys was born into poverty just like Joe, so he's able to connect with Rhys. But Rhys was able to get out of poverty and was seen as almost an equal to the elites, so Joe's also a little jealous of him and that makes it easier for him to make Rhys his scapegoat.

Whenever someone steps out of line and ridicules the poor Joe dissociates & kills them. Joe kills Malcolm out of pure rage for saying Marienne's probably with the next guy by now. He kills Simon, because Simon was exploiting the artist and passing her work off as his own. He kills Gemma, because she was rude to the servants. I think murdering the bodyguard wasn't completely intentional, but he was just being typical Joe.

Also, when he killed Marienne he had to take a picture of her Jewelry to prove that she was actually dead. He's been cutting off limbs to collect jewelry. Malcolm was wearing a ring & Simon was wearing earrings. I'm not sure what Jewelry Gemma was wearing. Killing the bodyguard was an accident, and he didn't hallucinate during that one, so that's why the bodyguard didn't have a missing limb or any jewelry.

It would be poetic justice, because Joe's You is now the "Eat the Rich Killer" that keeps texting him, which means he's become his own You.

Proof that Joe is imagining scenes with Rhys:

• Joe's the only person that interacts with Rhys.

• He "meets" Rhys right after reading his autobiography, and Rhys never talks to him about anything that's not mentioned in the book.

• Episode 2 right at the 2 minute mark. Joe is talking to Rhys in the midst of a bunch of people, and Adam says "What was that??" it looked as if Joe was talking to himself, and everyone at the table looked confused who Joe was talking to.

• I know You isn't always realistic, but why would a future mayor elect be spending so much time at elite parties when he's supposed to be a man of the people??? Rhys has a lot to lose, why would he go around killing people?? Why would he spend so much time finding all those articles about Joe????

• He uses a disappearing message app, because it would take a lot of effort to text himself from another phone and spoof messages from Rhys'.

1. i love Kate. i have no idea why some people call her annoying. she is not supposed to be sweet, she is supposed to be passive aggressive and with trust issues but with empathetic heart underneath her cold bitch demeanor and the actress nailed the role. also, i think Joe's dynamic with her is the most refreshing and different. i would even say she might be the only one Joe fell for as she is rather than as she is in his head. and maybe the only one who fell for him as he is, rather than as he curates himself to attract a specific person. chemistry was indeed chemistrying as well.

2. i think Rhys is indeed the real person, but he is just the public figure whose memoir inspired Joe's subconscious to create an alter ego. we never see Rhys interact with anyone, and the one time when Joe talks to Rhys in front of others (during the dinner party) causes others' surprise/confusion. each time Rhys supposedly killed someone, Joe was passed out. honestly, this would be the only case where i'm interested in Rhys.

3. i hope Joe won't get away in the end this time. i think that blonde paparazzi woman might be onto something. maybe she is the one to expose him. i thought that she was a crazy fangirl stalking him but now we know she isn't, unless Joe's mind is a complete mess and he incorporated his stalker into his eat the rich alter ego.

4. i actually really enjoyed the first part. it was a lot of fun, BUT i hope for more insanity and creepiness in part 2.

5. i'm glad i watched the season before going online. this way i was able to really decide for myself if i like the season or not, which again, i did.

So many characters making dumb decisions that rely solely on plot convenience.

Marienne and Nadia's plan was to fake Marienne's death while hoping that a serial killer who burnt up his ex-wife won't do anything to her body. What?

Joe usually cuts up and/or buries bodies. He's a master at taking care of bodies. But guess what? He left her body on a bench so she'll be found as a junkie? What? He could have chopped her up or buried her or used chemicals to dissolve her body or something. That was a dumb plan that only needs plot convenience to work and the hope that he leaves her body intact..

Very dumb plan coming from so-called smart characters. There was no valid reason for not calling the police on Joe. Is Joe superhuman? What would he do if he was arrested?

Apparently, even if by luck the plan worked, the killer who tracked her across the globe won't suspect for a second that she's alive?

This season had too many writing issues, forced plot twists etc...it's almost as if the writers wanted to add as many elements as possible in the show and drag it on further... I guess the numbers are good so Netflix won't let it end even when this season would have been a perfect time to end the show

My biggest issue is characters acting irrational. Yes most of the cast are junkies...it still doesn't cover up the random behavior of these characters. These characters feel like they're just there to occupy screentime.

Even the police...wtf... It's crazy how they don't suspect Joe despite him being the most suspicious. Someone was murdered in a resort with a killer on the loose almost burning 2 others alive, yet the police did nothing? They didn't even question or investigate the people there. Police didn't even ask questions about how TF they took care of the body. At least someone should have given statement about how Joe took the body downstairs or something. The police didn't even question them? What?

What about Joe? He has multiple personality disorder but how TF did he set the bunker he was in on fire with no way to escape. In fact if Kate hadn't come to save them, he'd be dead. There was no way he could have predicted she would even find where he was. Terrible writing there.

I cannot forgive the character assassination of Joe. The explanation for why Joe murdered those people was beyond terrible. So Joe killed someone because she made a drunk and high remark around a table that "people started dying the moment he appeared?" What? No one even took her seriously.

Joe throughout the past seasons has never been someone to kill so thoughtlessly. That's the reason he's survived for so long. He's smart.

What was his other motives for the other murders? Someone he barely knew was taking advantage of his former staff and getting all the credit? What?

It's almost as if the writers don't even understand Joe's character. Character assassination right there.

Kate's father, Tim, he knew his daughter was dating someone who he suspected had previously killed his wife and yet he allowed him? And even blackmailed him to kill Rhys? What? For someone that powerful, it makes no sense that he couldn't pay someone with no trace to him to do the job. It had to be someone he thought was an amateur? Why would he even leave the daughter he was so protective of with Joe?

Don't let me get started on the mess that Phoebe was.

I heard the previous seasons were adapted from novels...but I won't be surprised if this season was not...it was probably just a season to milk the shows popularity.

Overall Season 4 Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

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